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posts: 157

This is a really important topic to bring up, and I wanted to make this thread because of what happened at the Miss America Pageant.
If you missed it, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMvviFbkf0&feature=related

So, what are your thoughts?

Personally, It bothers me that people are just like ‘oh well its her opinion…’
There is an EXTENT to what personal opinion is okay.
There is a difference between opinions such as; I prefer purple over green.
And: “I hate people with white skin and really I dont think they should have rights and I think there should be a second holocaust for them.”


That was obviously just an example by the way.
Equality is Equality.
People are being snotty about their religion (bigots.) by trying to have CONTROL over people.
You cannot deny two people equality. Gay people SHOULD be allowed to be married, EVERYWHERE!!

posted over 5 years ago
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shadowplay_
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shadowplay_
posts: 258

You’re right. Although some people may say “Oh, you’re condemning Miss California (was it?) too much for her opinion on gay marriage, everyone’s allowed to have an opinion,” her opinion is unethical in a way, because it infringes on a basic human right and promotes the idea that gay people are somehow subpar.

posted over 5 years ago
 
Bouby
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Bouby
posts: 24

I agree, I’ve just seen it on tv.

I don’t understand why she got upset about Perez Hilton’s question, it seems like she took it as a personal attack. He asked a good question, I mean she was running for Miss America ! That means she could represent americanS, ALL of them.
It is not more about her opinion, it was about sense ! I think it shows that most of the people never try to think differently, or just think as if the situation was different. What if she was gay…

Well, maybe she should had shut her mouth up.

Is gay marriage legal in California ?

posted over 5 years ago
 
flattery
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posts: 157

No it is not legal in California, as this was passed last year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

posted over 5 years ago
 
twinkl
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twinkl
posts: 125

They should just get rid of the Miss America pageant altogether.

But what makes me really angry are all the California religious bigots who got Prop 8 passed. Why do people think religion has any right to interfere with the state? Honestly, is gay rights an issue at all beyond infringing on some religious beliefs? From a purely humanitarian perspective, what is the issue????

As for Miss California, her answer should have been ambiguous at the very least. She deserved to lose that pageant.

posted over 5 years ago
 
thefieldsofelysium
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thefieldsofe...
posts: 170

They should just get rid of the Miss America pageant altogether.

Seconded. Who actually takes the contestants’ stock answers seriously?

Why do people think religion has any right to interfere with the state? Honestly, is gay rights an issue at all beyond infringing on some religious beliefs? From a purely humanitarian perspective, what is the issue????

Unfortunately, the powers of logic and reason are futile when faced off with utterly hopeless fundamentalists, who don’t understand that there are infinitely more important things in this fucked-up world to be concerned about. (I can’t even believe that in this day and age, we still have to fight for rights like this.)

(Also, I believe Lewis Black did a stand-up piece some time ago that included his opinion of people who view gay marriage as a threat to the ‘traditional’ family. He said something along the lines of “How exactly is it a threat to the ‘traditional’ family? Is it that every time two gays get married, a team of ninja homosexuals – with expertly coordinated outfits, of course – go up to a ‘traditional’ family’s house in a black van and plan to slaughter them all?” Spot on.)

posted over 5 years ago
 
speakslow
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speakslow
posts: 49

When she answered the question, she should have just given a neutral answer. She shouldn’t have said defiantly no or defiantly yes, she should have really just suggested what she thought.
I am totally for gay marriage, Perez was smart to think of a question like that. Way to put those girls who’s brain cells can really function on the spot :D

posted over 5 years ago
 
fauxfur
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fauxfur
posts: 134

I am a devout Catholic, but I support gay marriage.

On that note, I’m glad Carrie spoke her mind. She stood by her faith and answered according to her personal point of view. If she had given a different answer, she may have won, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON A LIE. That’s simply cheating your way in by pleasing everyone so you can grab the winning title. If such had happened, we would now have a fake pro-gay marriage Californian representing the United States in the Miss World/Universe pageant. Carrie is right in that she was blessed to have been asked that question. She may have lost, but she is real.

Now, had another candidate been asked the same question and answered with a ‘Yes’, many religious ‘bigots’ (We’re not all bigots, guys) who oppose gay marriage would have reacted with the same disappointment, anger, so on and so forth.

Gay marriage, like any other controversial topic, will never be agreed on by all. These are my opinions and I hope you all respect mine as I respect yours.

:)

@speakslow: She DID suggest what she thought, by the way. Just sayin’.

posted about 5 years ago
 
Memosne
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Memosne
posts: 53

I fully support gay marriage and I was very disappointed that Proposition 8 passed…I was so incredibly surprised as well. Ms. California said what she thought and although other people may disagree she represents the division that allowed Proposition 8 to pass. I personally disagree with her and I thought it’d be nice to share this website with my fellow Chictopians.

http://www.13lovestories.com/

This website was created by individuals at UCLA and it shares thirteen different and distinct love stories between same sex couples who wish to be married. It touched my heart and I hope it will touch yours as well. Prop 8 should be repealed and I hope it happens soon.

posted about 5 years ago
 
flattery
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posts: 157

I’ll check that website out.

posted about 5 years ago
 
thefieldsofelysium
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thefieldsofe...
posts: 170

@ fauxfur: No, it wouldn’t have been better if she had lied. (Although she could’ve made her point stronger by qualifying it….which she didn’t. “That’s how I was raised” is not a valid argument.)

And we’re not saying all religious people are bigots. The intended target is the fundamentalists — the extremists whom I think many unfairly believe represent the general religious population. (Luckily, this is not the case, although the fundies are quite loud and annoying. Westboro Baptist Church, anyone?)

What I think people are not clear on is the role of the church in relation to the state, in regards to gay marriage. Supporters of gay marriage are not asking every church in the country to sanction it, perform it, or even recognize its existence. (That falls under the realm of religious freedom.) However, as a legal contract that comes with certain privileges (being allowed to visit your partner/spouse in the hospital, parental rights, tax benefits, etc.), marriage is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a human right that should be recognized by all state governments, as well as the federal government. (Hell, even Iowa understands this concept.) Are ‘traditionally married’ couples rejecting the portion of gay working people’s tax money that helps pay for their kids’ public schooling? No. They’re upholding a double standard that is undermining the true U.S. tradition of rights for all.

The same people who want to protect ‘traditional’ marriage wouldn’t dare say anything against interracial marriage today, even though their predecessors vehemently protested it in the ‘50s and ’60s (and even well past the Supreme Court Loving v. Virginia case). And they were claiming to be protecting ’traditional’ marriage, as well. So, in my eyes, the arguments and ‘reasoning’ of today’s ‘traditional marriage protectors’ don’t hold much water to begin with. (America – in its early days – used to be at the forefront of the fight for human rights, but now – the way I see it – we’re incredibly behind. It’s embarrassing.)

To come back to Miss California, she did not address any of these points (or other historically-based facts) during the pageant. And she continues to ignore them, even going so far as to become the National Organization for Marriage’s ‘pin-up girl.’ And that’s why many people are disappointed in and angry with her.

Addendum: What a coincidence — I have MSNBC on right now and Miss California was just mentioned (in relation to her breast implants, though….not her response to the same-sex marriage question).

posted about 5 years ago
 
lifeinsideamusicbox
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lifeinsideam...
posts: 68

One of the things that kills me the most about this is not only the idea that keeping gay and lesbian couples from getting married will somehow ‘protect’ the institution of such, but the idea that there is such an illustrious institution left to protect.

As far as official state-recognized marriage goes (as it is and should be separate from marriage as recognized in regards to a particular faith) it is a right that is taken quite casually and often for granted by those to whom it is available. For instance, what are drive-thru chapels in Vegas doing to the institution of marriage? How about two-month Hollywood marriages? Gold diggers? Adulterers? Those who go through spouses as if they were disposable?

Marriage in this country is rarely taken even one quarter as seriously as it is suddenly taken when ignorant minds perceive a threat to the status quo, to that with which they are familiar. The saddest part is that in reality, as far as the ‘sanctity of marriage’ goes, our best chance of maintaining the integrity of such may in fact be the couples who have been waiting so long to simply have the same rights as the drunken couple at the 24-hour chapel.

Since really, if you believe that gay marriage is such a threat – if, like Miss California, ’that’s just how you were raised,’ then you’re missing the point entirely – a lifelong commitment between two people which should be able stand on its own, outside of and regardless of government sanction. How seriously can something be taken when it is not truly understood? How successful can one’s own marriage be when the sanctity of the institution is being judged by the respective genders of those who partake in it?

Perhaps that is part of the problem.

posted about 5 years ago
 
lanibelle19
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lanibelle19
posts: 18

It’s going to happen, slowly but surely. I’ve been fighting for it for years and I’m proud to say it’s almost in New Hampshire :) All of New England might have it in a year…and the rest of the nation is soon to follow.

posted about 5 years ago
 
elora
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elora
posts: 34

well I’m in no way taking Miss California’s side but the question was asked to her and she did respond honestly. I am for the right to choose who you want to marry and I’m sure a lot of california is but her answers do not represent her state. She reprsents her state and her answers represent her. Did you want her to lie and make up an answer she didn’t believe in just so she wouldnt get people upset? It’s not like shes the only person in the country that believes what she believes. I’m sure half of th country would be upset if she answered that she believes that other states should follow vermont in legalizing same-sex marriage…just as you all are upset about her answering differently.

posted about 5 years ago
 
thefieldsofelysium
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thefieldsofe...
posts: 170

@ lifeinsideamusicbox: Exactly. Those who denounce same-sex marriage in order to ‘protect traditional marriage’ have nothing to say when it comes to Vegas drive-thru chapels, gold-diggers, adulterers, and Liz-Taylor-ites. Or attempt to distance themselves from ‘those people.’ (Hint: you can’t ignore people who participate – sometimes repeatedly – in the very institution you’re trying to ‘preserve.’)

Of course, there are some (including those in the GLBT community) who say that they don’t want to follow the normative, heterosexual marriage model, precisely because it’s been reduced to the point where it has very little value. Just look at our divorce rate — 40 to 50% for first marriages, and even higher rates for second and third marriages.

The saddest part is that in reality, as far as the ‘sanctity of marriage’ goes, our best chance of maintaining the integrity of such may in fact be the couples who have been waiting so long to simply have the same rights as the drunken couple at the 24-hour chapel. I think this may hold true in the short-term, but in the long run, I believe the divorce rates for same-sex couples will be about the same as those for heterosexual couples. We’re human, and marriage in this country will still be – from a ‘moral’ perspective – more or less a failing institution.

@ elora: Yes, I think some people become irrationally upset whenever others voice a differing viewpoint. (It’s a natural occurrence.) But I have to reiterate that no, having her lie would not have made things better. What I personally am upset about is that she does not engage in any intelligent debates or discussions about the issue. (Never mind the fact that she’s devoting more time and effort to the National Organization for Marriage than she is to the Special Olympics — her original chosen cause.) This would not be necessary if she had kept her opinion personal. But now that she’s an official spokesperson for the NOM, which pays her to participate in its $1.5 million ad against same-sex marriage, she now has a responsibility to qualify her argument and corroborate it with plausible reasoning. But she does neither and then expects others to join her in the cause against same-sex marriage.

posted about 5 years ago
 
lanibelle19
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lanibelle19
posts: 18

i also wonder, would people say it was “just her opinion” if she said something racist? it was homophobic whether it’s supported by a religious institution or not. racism wouldn’t be tolerated and neither should homophobia.

as my gay friend said, "i’m sick of people using “it’s just an opinion” as an excuse to insult me"

posted about 5 years ago
 
lifeinsideamusicbox
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lifeinsideam...
posts: 68

@thefieldsofelysium: Of course, there are some (including those in the GLBT community) who say that they don’t want to follow the normative, heterosexual marriage model, precisely because it’s been reduced to the point where it has very little value.

And they have a point – actually the idea of separating ‘marriage’ from the benefits and privileges granted in such by the government is an appealing one. The idea of having civil unions, except for everyone, with marriage being left entirely to religious institutions that could be as exclusionary or as inclusive as they liked… it isn’t going to happen, but it actually makes the most sense, because I think another big part of the problem here is that connecting religious marriage and the federal government is connecting church and state – which inherently creates problems (to understate).

That would be fixing the institution on the whole (on the government side), which is a cool idea but an entirely different one. So in lieu of that, making the current broken institution at the very least available to everyone is sort of the least we can do, IMO. As much as marriage isn’t the be all and end all, not everyone has the luxury of being able to scorn the idea – the financial and legal benefits are undeniable, and can only be re-created outside of marriage with an inordinate amount of money. (It’s also, I know from watching my own family, a somewhat complicated process, made worse by the knowledge that it should be unnecessary). Separate is inherently unequal, and even if you can deal with the inequality, it doesn’t mean that everyone can, nor does it make it any better.

I think this may hold true in the short-term, but in the long run, I believe the divorce rates for same-sex couples will be about the same as those for heterosexual couples.

No, you’re right – people are people, and in time it will even out. I suppose it’s just that the current contrast is stark, and makes ‘sanctity of marriage’ arguments look all the more ridiculous – it’s a poor argument to begin with, and then to add insult to injury let’s take a look at the people who (at present) want nothing more than to take this seriously, because it’s been kept from them for so long. It just adds to the feeling that those who oppose gay marriage must somehow be joking… but yeah, in the long run it most likely will (and really, should be) the same.

posted about 5 years ago
 
twinkl
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twinkl
posts: 125

@thefieldsofelysium: I prefer the term “opposite marriage” to “traditional marriage” thankyouverymuch… j/k. Great points, by the way.

@lanibelle19: along those lines, what if the question were from 50 years ago and addressed interracial marriages?

The problem is that many people have been so brainwashed by religious and political (but religiously motivated) leaders that they think there’s some fundamental difference between a man marrying a man and a man marrying a woman. What’s the difference? Children? Procreation? If that’s the case, WHY IN THE WORLD would this be a mind-blowing, earth-shattering, family-destroying phenomena?

I’ve seen the Pro Prop-8 commercials. They are ridiculous. People are on there giving testimonials about how they don’t want their children to be forced to learn in school that it’s okay for a girl to like another girl, or for a friend to have two dads and no mommy. These commercials do not address any sort of logic—they are blatant PROPAGANDA made to appeal to your emotions. Of course, that’s how it goes in the world of marketing, even for social issues like this.

But honestly, if you think “it was just her opinion” then why is there legislature trying to ban or legalize this issue? Obviously it goes beyond personal preference if the state and government needs to get involved. People need to think the issue through for themselves and not fall back on some ridiculous naive excuse like “that’s how I was raised.” What?

posted about 5 years ago
 
bauss
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bauss
posts: 79

It is sickening to hear people clapping in support as she answers. Marriage is for two people in love and should not be restricted to heterosexual couples.

I live in California and I can hardly believe that same sex marriage is legal in IOWA but not here. Aren’t we supposed to be super liberal?

Talking to people who oppose same sex marriage is frustrating. They try to argue ridiculous points like,

“Oh, so if marriage is about love, people are going to start marrying their dogs if you legalize gay marriage!!!!”

posted about 5 years ago
 
lanibelle19
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lanibelle19
posts: 18

i have been on this equal rights fight for a while. i’m not gay but most of my friends are. i am encouraged by the progress made already this year. like i said, it’s only a matter of time. i think it’s awesome that NO ONE in this forum has come out AGAINST gay marriage. maybe it’s because it’s a fashion website, and creative minds tend to bend towards being open (and intelligent…ha). in many other forums i’ve been in, this thread would start a war.

it’s only a matter of time…

posted about 5 years ago
 
bauss
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bauss
posts: 79

Definitely. My best friend is a lesbian and was only slightly disappointed at prop 8 passing. When I asked her about it, she asserted her belief that it would be overturned very soon

posted about 5 years ago
 
NicoleStar91
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NicoleStar91
posts: 29

flattery: the example you made is nothing like what she said. she didn’t sound “snotty” AT ALL, she sounded pretty respectful and she has every right to her opinion. she should not have lost a beauty pageant for being against gay marriage. i hate how it’s thought of as politically incorrect to be against gay marriage.

posted about 5 years ago
 
NicoleStar91
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NicoleStar91
posts: 29

and i think it’s worse to say “religious people are bigots” than it is to say “same sex marriages should not be allowed”.

posted about 5 years ago
 
kaci
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kaci
posts: 9

i believe that if two people are happy then they should be able to do whatever they want. its not hurting me in any way nor does it hurt anyone else. and from what i’ve heard, perez was just an ass to her afterwards saying on his blog something like, “she didn’t lose the pageant because of that question, she was just a dumb bitch.” really? and you were a judge? pathetic. correct me if im wrong on the exact words but i heard it was something along those lines.. i could be completely off tho ha.

posted about 5 years ago
 
fauxfur
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fauxfur
posts: 134

@kaci: I agree! His exact words were, “She lost, not because she doesn’t believe in gay marriage; Miss California lost because she’s a DUMB BITCH.” Unprofessionalism at its finest.

posted about 5 years ago
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